Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V10_1/V10_163.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V10 #163

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 10 : Issue 163

Today's Topics:
             Re: Plutonium in Earth orbit
              Re: More on the Christics
              Re: Confederacy in Space?
           Re: Japanese mining of asteroids
         Re: gravitational assist - intuitive model.
        Re: Amroc Helium Pressurization system
            Long Duration Facility
                 Re: An Idea
              Re: Long Duration Facility
             Japanese, Space, Leadership
             Re: Plutonium in Earth orbit
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 89 01:47:46 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!ug.utah.edu![e-mail]  (Ray Jones)
Subject: Re: Plutonium in Earth orbit

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Steve Masticola) writes:
>Paul Dietz writes:
>
>[re RTG's in Earth orbit]
>
>> The orbits can be high enough so that many halflives would pass
>> before reentry.
>
>The half life of plutonium is, if I remember correctly, 3 million
>years.
>

    Someone pointed out to me that the plutonium used in RTG's is
plutonium 298 (not sure on this number) which has a half life of 3
(also not sure, but it is close) years.  An extremely long half life
would not work as a power source...

    Just a point...

    I'm giving up on this argument.  It's not an argument, because
masticol is on another plane from mine.  I value science over human
life, because to me humans are just animals with swelled heads, while
he values human life over science.  No basis, no communication, and
both of us resort to calling names.  (Well, one of us ;-)

tjones

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Email: [e-mail]
       "Beware of Quantization Errors."  -prof man page
  "My morals are in no way responsive to your arguments.  Shut up."

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 89 19:31:15 GMT
From: dino!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu![e-mail]  (Kevin Hill)
Subject: Re: More on the Christics

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (S Schaper) writes:
>They are NOT any brand of Christian, historically defined. I suspect that they
>are a sub-group of the radical-left combined with New-Age/Hindu type thought.
>They might _call_ themselves Christian, perhaps - I don't know, but if you
>look at the past 1950 odd years of Christian thought, they don't fit.
>
>UUCP: {amdahl!bungia, uunet!rosevax, chinet, killer}!orbit!pnet51!schaper
>ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51![e-mail]
>INET: [e-mail]

Hmmm...

Anti-Progress,
Anti-Technology,
Anti-Promoting-mans-knowledge-of-the-Universe,

Yeah, I guess you got me there, that doesn't sound one damn bit like the
historic views of Christians. (Sarcasm, In case you didn't get it...)

--

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 89 20:41:22 GMT
From: hubcap!ncrcae!ncr-sd!hp-sdd!hp-pcd!hpcvlx![e-mail]  (Greg Goebel)
Subject: Re: Confederacy in Space?


> DID CONFEDERATE ROCKET FIND ITS WAY INTO ORBIT?
>
> Peter Scott ([e-mail])

This sounds like something Harry Harrison might write when he was
feeling humorous.  At the risk of seeming narrow minded:  If you believe this,
you'll believe anything.
--
    +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | Greg Goebel                                                         |
    | Hewlett-Packard CWO / 1000 NE Circle Boulevard / Corvallis OR 97330 |
    | [phone]                                                      |
    | INTERNET: gvg@hp-pcd                                                |
    | HP DESK:  GREG GOEBEL / HP3900 / 20                                 |
    +---------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 89 10:01:21 GMT
From: munnari.oz.au!csc![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Japanese mining of asteroids

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John E Van Deusen III) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]>
> [e-mail] (Christopher Neufeld) writes:
>>
>> My prediction is that within thirty years the Japanese space program
>> will have launched a rendezvous and recovery mission to an earth-
>> approaching metallic asteroid, and will be sending it to earth orbit.
>> --
>> Christopher Neufeld
>> [e-mail]
>
> Thirty years is a long time in political terms, but it would be
> unthinkable in the current political climate to allow Japan to develop
> this technology - especially unilaterally.  I am sure that anyone who
> has seen THIS ISLAND EARTH can appreciate that the capability to
> precisely direct the motion of an asteroid constitutes a fantastically-
> formidable, if not ultimate, weapon.
>
> I believe that as a result of our nuclear attack upon the Japanese and
> our subsequent maintenance of their society in a child-like state with
> regard to most non-economic issues, we now have on our hands a "three
> hundred pound sumo teenager" with a poorly-developed world view and a
> "bad attitude".  The Japanese have sublimated their human energies into
> economic competition in a manner that is so unrelenting that they now
> threaten to undermine the ability of the USA to provide the leadership
> role upon which the Japanese themselves are dependent.  That is to say,
> if the Japanese don't cut us some slack and allow us to sell them
> SOMETHING, no one is going to be able to develop the technology required
> for mining the asteroids.  Such accomplishments can only be the fruits
> of extremely long-term political and economic stability.
>
> Recently the Vice President was in Japan, and he put the bite on them
> for a few tens of millions of dollars in order to put up a research
> satellite.  Wouldn't it be great if the Japanese could take a fraction
> of their trade imbalance with the USA and put up the space station?
> Guess what - they would love to do it!  Unfortunately, the reason they
> would love to do it, so that they could beat up on all their trading
> partners with that great new technology, is an unacceptable one.
>
> Last Friday the US stock market dropped nearly 200 points as measured by
> the DOW average, and at midnight tonight automatic, across-the-board
> spending cuts are "supposed to be" triggered, in response to our
> government's inability to to deal in any meaningful way with the budget
> deficit.  We are having VERY serious difficulties in funding our post-
> WW II leadership role.  The Japanese, although they could probably
> afford it, are totally unprepared to assume that leadership role or even
> to contribute as an equal partner.  To take an example, although the
> Japanese are now the world's largest provider of non-military aid to
> developing countries, that aid has inevitably been tied to trade
> concessions or exploitative deals for raw materials.
>
> It is time for the USA to "allow" the Japanese to develop a world view,
> quite possibly by allowing them to contribute toward their own defense.
> Otherwise, it is time to start charging them rent on the portion of the
> free world that they inhabit.  They aren't teenagers any more ... and
> another thing, cut out that whaling.
> --
> John,
    I have several questions.  (1)  Why does the world need a nation to
adopt the "leadership role"?
                   (2)  Why does it have to be the US?
                   (3)  Why should the Japanese act any
differently as regard to foreign aid than does any other nation in the world
(all development aid from any country has strings tied to it in one way or
another)?
                   (4)  How do you know that the Japanese
haven't already development a "world view"?   It just might be completely
different to that of your own.
                   (5)  Isn't time that the US and *its*
citizens realised that (a) they have had their shot at `world leadership' and
failed (it seems that a lot of todays problems have been caused by US
leadership over that of others).  (b)  The world is tired of little
boys playing with their toys and hitting each other over the head with their
very large phallic symbols.  Why can't the US catch up and actually do something
to help break down the barriers that exist between nations, rather than adding
to them with their racist, reactionary (Oh! No! The Japanese are building a
completely different society which is *better* than us at what we do!) efforts!

    It increasing seems to me that the US by playing its silly little games
with the Soviets (and the Soviets have only just woken up to this) have been
left behind by the Japanese.  To which my only reply is good on the Japanese.
It serves you right and I just hope you will realise this and not do something
totally stupid (which is always a possiblity), liking making the Japanese not
only the first nation to suffer a nuclear attack, but also the second!

B.R.

P.S. So I flamed, so what?  And Henry of Toronto if you don't think this is an
appropriate forum for this discussion I think you should realise that this is
where it started and NO we here in Australia don't get rec.arts.talk.politics
or any other of those very obscure newsgroups.  So I will reply to this in the
newsgroup where I read it!

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 89 18:14:08 GMT
From: pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu![e-mail]  (Johnny Zweig)
Subject: Re: gravitational assist - intuitive model.


As a novice, I feel competent to give a naive intuitive model of
gravitational assist:

I am sprinting down the sidewalk, and my friend Jimmy is jogging slowly
down (say) the sidewalk that intersects mine. Instead of crashing into
him when our paths intersect, we grab each other's arm for a second, and
I end up flinging him 270-degrees so he's running the same direction as
I am.

Now I will have been slowed down since it took some of my forward momentum
(actually kinetic energy) to swing him around and give his velocity a
component that I call forward. If he doesn't lose any of the velocity he
had from jogging, he's now going faster than before.

Don't try this experiment at home, boys and girls.

Another way of looking at gravitational assist (if you don't like my
analogy) is to consider what happens if you "fall" toward the planet cutting
across its orbit, but "coast away" along the orbit. If you assume that your
speed relative to the planet coming in is the same as that going out since
no energy is lost, you are now going however fast you were going plus
however fast the planet is going. I don't believe (and I will sure get
zapped if this is wrong) that the delta-V can be greater than the velocity of
the planet.

-Johnny Not-a-physicist-but-I-play-one-on-the-net

------------------------------

Date: 18 Oct 89 19:31:40 GMT
From: deimos.cis.ksu.edu!uafcveg!uafhcx![e-mail]  (6079 Smith J)
Subject: Re: Amroc Helium Pressurization system


In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Henry Spencer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (douglas.h.price,45261,ih,6x203,312 979 3664) writes:
> >  On the test stand, you can walk
> >right up to the motor and lay hands on it, right up to minutes before
> >firing without the usual range safety issues...
>
> The same is, of course, true of any liquid-fuel rocket.  I assumed we were
> talking about sensibly-designed rockets, not roman candles.

If anyone would like to lay hands on the SSME here at Marshall, minutes
before a test, let me know.  I'll take you to the test stand, and I'll
bring a camera to get the expression on your face when your hands freeze
onto the liquid-propellant ducts.  :-)

'Course, given gloves, I'd still rather mess with liquids than solids.


|  James W. Smith, University of Arkansas  | uafhcx![e-mail] |
|  Our domain name is finally valid!  New: |     [e-mail]        |
|    I'm so depressed.  If I didn't have so much to do, I'd be a nihilist.   |

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 89 04:36:59 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (David Palmer)
Subject: Long Duration Facility

I read in the news (L.A. Times, 10/16/89) that the Long Duration Exposure
Facility (LDEF) is scheduled to re-enter in late November.  I believe
the shuttle flight to recover it was planned for December.

    1) is this true, or is it a newspaper?
    2) Will they still launch the shuttle if the LDEF comes down first?
    3) What are the other planned objectives for this flight?

        David Palmer
        [e-mail]
        ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer
    "Direct quotes don't have to be exact, or even accurate.  Truth is as
    irrelevant to a newspaper as it is to a court of law"
    - Judge Alarcon, 9th circuit court of appeals (paraphrased)

------------------------------

Date: 16 Oct 89 21:36:47 GMT
From: hpda!hpcuhb!hpcllla!hpclove![e-mail]  (Bob Campbell)
Subject: Re: An Idea

You also add the complexity of needing to refuel via tanker before
launching the Pegasus.  I think the only thing gained would be the
fun of using a Blackbird :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Campbell                Some times I wish that I could stop you from
[e-mail]        talking, when I hear the silly things you say.
Hewlett Packard                                    - Elvis Costello

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 89 13:56:29 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (JOHNSON RICHARD J)
Subject: Re: Long Duration Facility

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (David Palmer) writes:
>I read in the news (L.A. Times, 10/16/89) that the Long Duration Exposure
>Facility (LDEF) is scheduled to re-enter in late November.

A minor quibble about your terminology.  LDEF is *expected* to re-enter, not
scheduled.  :-)

Richard Johnson

------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 89 16:49:22 GMT
From: jumbo![e-mail]  (Bob Ayers)
Subject: Japanese, Space, Leadership

John E Van Deusen III suggests that the Japanese (the thread is a Japanese
space presence) are "in a child-like state" and writes that

    Last Friday the US stock market dropped nearly 200 points as measured
    by the DOW average, and at midnight tonight automatic,
    across-the-board spending cuts are "supposed to be" triggered, in
    response to our government's inability to to deal in any meaningful
    way with the budget deficit.  We are having VERY serious difficulties
    in funding our post- WW II leadership role.  The Japanese, although
    they could probably afford it, are totally unprepared to assume that
    leadership role or even to contribute as an equal partner.  To take an
    example, although the Japanese are now the world's largest provider of
    non-military aid to developing countries, that aid has inevitably been
    tied to trade concessions or exploitative deals for raw materials.

Seems to me tht his quote demonstrates that the Japanese are a lot more
adult than the USA.  The USA can't even figure out how to run the
budgetary process.

Bob

------------------------------

Date: 19 Oct 89 12:26:54 GMT
From: ncrlnk!ncrcce![e-mail]  (Michael A. Pasek)
Subject: Re: Plutonium in Earth orbit

Steve Masticola writes:
>Paul Dietz writes:
>> And, a properly designed RTG should be able to withstand reentry
>> (after all, certain other plutonium-containing objects do).
>Agreed. Question: _Are_ RTG's designed to withstand uncontrolled,
>tumbling re-entry? They'd have to be built as spheres, with heat
>[design details deleted]
>aware that it is technically feasible to design an RTG that can
>re-enter safely, without guidance. But - is it being done?

This would be an excellent question to have researched the answer for
before telling the world that we're doomed to die (and take the rest
of life as we know it with us) from a rain of nuclear waste if we
even think of putting RTG's in orbit.

M. A. Pasek          Switching Software Development         NCR Comten, Inc.
[phone]              CNG Development               2700 N. Snelling Ave.
[e-mail]                               Roseville, MN  55113

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V10 #163
*******************